Thanks to the success of my Scotland is Not a Country article (I receive more email about this topic than any other), I decided to add more email to my inbox by writing an equally (if not more) provocative article called England is Not a Country. Enjoy it and let me know what you think! Click "comments" below and share your thoughts...
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Comments
Found this article most entertaining, however I already knew that England was not it’s own country but I whole-heartedly enjoyed your take on it. I am most pleased with this service I won my school geography bee for the 2nd out f three times I tried (wasn’t able to take test in 5th grade) and acredit some success to you.
Thank you,
Geography bee Winner
England,Scotland or Wales is country when it means district or province in the state.
Pardon my ignorance, but it would seem that by reverse engineering Point 4 of your eight-point criteria, the United States was not a country for its initial 80 or 90 years (depending on which constitution becomes the baseline) since America’s first Department of Education wasn’t created by Congress until after the Civil War.
After the original department was downgraded to an office level a few years later, it was over 100 years before the second Department of Education came into being at the end of Jimmy Carter’s tenure in the Oval Office.
Now, I realize that the national government was involved in education with the Land Ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. However, there was no national Department of Education under the 1777 Articles of Confederation or original federal bureaucratic structure implied by The (current) Constitution of 1787.
Furthermore, until the rise of cooperative federalism during the Great Depression, legislation regarding health, education, and morals was almost exclusively left to the states.
Do I err or do we have a convenient double standard when it comes to us versus them?
Matt,
And how about England to participate alone at World Soccer Cup?
As an Englishman living in the US, I have often thought that America was not a country!
I’m glad your corresponent # 3 agrees with me!
You can’t invent criteria and use that to prove something. Besides your information is inaccurate.
For example:
Wales and Scotland have different education systems. An English teacher cannot teach in Scotland unless he or she has trained and qualified there. Scotland has a completely different legal system.Scotland has its own money. I could go on, but the most important thing is, you cannot define these things in the way you have. It doesn’t matter what you say to a Welshman,
he will tell you he is WELSH, not English or British.
He has his own language and culture, and so does a Scot and so does an Englishman. This article was obviously written by a foreigner. An English man knows his country is England, because he lives there!
This may well be a controversial topic! However, I suspect that the eccentric British rather like the confusion felt by Americans trying to understand their friends across the pond!
Your previous correspondent, Jonathan Clifton is known as an English actor. As he knows,Dylan Thomas was called a great ‘Welsh’ poet. Robbie Coltraine is a successful ‘Scottish’ actor. We all know when we say these things that we are talking about their national origins. As Jonathan says, you can’t define it by legal terms. It just IS.
Jane Magadine USA
I have to agree with the concencious about your criteria for determining what makes a nation, a nation. My blood-line hails from every corner of the UK and Ireland, and even though all of those countries are under one banner, they have very different cultures, and, thus, identities. Each of those nations (England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland) all have their own NATIONAL football (or, soccer) teams because of those seperate identities. Your “8 Rules…” may work most of the time, but not for those 4 countries. Another point to ponder…ask a Scot what his flag is called, I’ll bet they’d say it’s the St. Andrew’s Cross, and not the Union Jack.
Well, you’ve convinced me! If one of the eight criteria is not met, the nation cannot be considered as an independent country. This is also true of Taiwan and Greenland. Why is this so difficult to understand? Your article is definitely factual, and it does not take a geography major to investigate whether your facts are true. Thanks for the great article!
Hello Matt,
I am a British, though not United Kingdomish!!, high school Geography teacher.
I have great difficulty in explaining and persuading my grade 7 ( and often
older) students that they do not live in a country called England! The are in
fact citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, The
Isle of Man, and possibly the States of Jersey, Guernsey,Alderney, Herm and
Sark (The Channel Islands)! I have arguments as to wether the Channel Islands
are separate countries!
Of course historically England was a country up until unifiaction with
Scotland when James I of England and VI of Scotland came to the throne. Wales
had been subjugated long before.
It is somewhat Ironic that with the New Scottish parliarment, that Scotland is
probably more of a an independent country than England. Wales too with its
assembly too has more claims to being a country.
I thinks sports organisations have a better understanding of the term England.
In the game of Rugby there is the “6 Nations championship” where the four home
nations( Wales,England, Scotland,and Ireland) compete with France and Italy.
So England could be called a Nation. Again ironically team members of Ireland
are selected from both the Republic and Northern Ireland. The only other sport
this happens in is boxing! ( maybe hurling and Gaelic fotball??) Examples of
the most violent sports across the “divide,” so to speak.
At the present time the Nation of England is gripped with Soccer World Cup
fever, though they’d call it football!! And the streets of England are
bedecked with the English flag, the cross of St. George. English nationalism
is at its height! Needless to say there are few St. Georges crosses flying in Scotland and Wales!
So here is a question for you what is the difference between a Nation and a
country?
I keep trying to tell the English kids I teach, they are British first and
English Second! Which is why when any one asks me when I am abroad if I am
English I reply, no I am British!!
I am glad you have raised this issue as there is nothing worse for a Welshman or Scotsman to be mistaken for an Englishman!!!!!!!!!
In response to America not being a proper country, does that mean it still is a colony of the UK? (Joke!!)
Gosh, I’m surprised (as I am by a lot of such questions raised on the Internet) that this drew any disagreement at all. I do recall “someone” defining country & nation differently than you do but that was years ago, and I can’t remember where I’m thinking of anyway.
I have printed your criteria and the explanations on Scotland and England. By using them next semester, perhaps my students can get a better grip on this British, English, etc. issue- one they really find confusing! Mainly I have simply used a map with lots of labels and ‘lines around.”
I was glad to see you address the point that it could be taken as an insult to call a Scot English or the like>
Which brings up – have you addressed the issue of “Where are you from?” for many Africans who would consider themselves, for example, Yoruba, not Nigerian?
Keep up the lucid explanations to help dispel the disturbing level of geographic ignorance.
You, sir, are full of hot air. A country is a country if it so regards itself as such. Take your eight phony criteria and go on a world tour to enlighten the unenlightened. I suggest that stops in Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England might prove most enlightening to you.
Hi folks!
I agree that England, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland are all entities in their own right but all I’m saying is that they are not among the 192 highest level independent political divisions of the planet. They are not individual members of the U.N. and can not become such.
I will actually be in the U.K. in just over a week and while I’m sure my trip will be enlightening, I doubt I’d decide that the U.K. is really four independent countries.
-Matt
I read it as a contention that everyone lives in whatever country they feel like. We got into that a bit here before at
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=841&webtag=ab-geography
and even
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=1313&webtag=ab-geography
among other threads.
To the people arguing that America is not a country, you are absolutely right America is a continent. As a Mexican citizen I often find it annoying that Europeans call “Americans” only to the citizens of the United States and “America” their country. Is as if someone would call “Europeans” only to the French. American is any person from the American continent, either north (which by the way includes Mexico,Canada and the United States), central or south america.
The reason citizens of the United States, and only those citizens are refered to as “Americans” world-wide is because the official name of our country is The United States of America. No other sovereign nation in North, South or Centeral America has the term “America” in their title as far as I am aware. Mexican nationals live in The Republic of Mexico, not The United States of Mexico for example. I hope this clearifies why the world outside of the Western Hemisphere, predominantly, conciders the US, America, and the citizens of the US as Americans.
Sorry all…need to make a correction to my last comment (above), Re: the example I typed using Mexico. I typed “The United States of Mexico”, when I meant to use “The Mexican States of America” to prove my point.
Sorry for any confusion everyone.
The most unfortunate thing about the United Kingdom — in my opinion — is that the entire British Isles, including the entire Island of Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, and the Faeroe Islands and Iceland — for that matter — are not a united country. The British people — those who live on the British Isles would be better off united, rather than divided. Get over the past and look towards the future, which it is not with the so called European Union that is already falling apart. And to create even more debate, why not add Australia and New Zealand, along with the Faeroe Islands and Iceland into the mix. A reinvented democratic British Nation called the United Kingdom of the British Isles, spread around the globe with a common language — for the most part.
Mick
Facts are facts no matter your feelings on the subject. England is not a country, it however is apart of The United Kingdom, which is a country. At most you can say is that England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland are constituent countries. Which is basically just a fancy way of saying they are subregions that make up a country. They are all states within the country United Kingdom. I’m not saying this to take away the value and history and the difference their maybe between the states. The history, makeup and even spirit of the different states are quite different. However, facts are facts, the United Kingdom is a country not England or Scotland. Also Europe is the continent not even the United Kingdom. However that doesn’t make the United Kingdom any less. Just facts are facts and these facts are relevant and more important than opinions and what port you are from.
Forgive the earlier typos
Ingrid I agree with you but people often call people from Canada, Canadian and people from the United States American that is just history. Even the United States wasn’t first called The United States but America when there were only colonies and no states to be united. Also North America and South America are separate continents. So America isn’t a continent.
I for one did not no that England was NOT a country
Surely the United Kingdom isnt a country either then due to this rule “4. Has the power of social engineering, such as education.”
The UK doesnt control all the educational systems within the United Kingdom, and therefore isnt a country (according to your definition of a country) so I ask you where does the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England belong?
Does England have its own armed forces? No. Is England a member of the United Nations? No. CAN England become a member of the United Nations? No. Can England make treaties with foreign countries? No. Can England join NATO? No. Is England independent and sovereign? No, it is subject to the laws made by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
England, Scotland and Wales are regions within the country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Yes, someone from Wales is likely to say they are Welsh, but when you ask someone from Houston where they’re from, they’re likely to say they’re Texan! It means nothing other than as a cultural and social identifyer. I was born in New York City. I often say I’m a New Yorker, but that doesn’t make New York a country!
Attempting to argue that England is a country is like saying Florida is its own country! Neither of them are, they are both simply states or provinces WITHIN a country (i.e. the UK or USA). Those of you who relentlessly argue that England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are countries in their own rights are displaying the sort of narrow minded ignorance that is notably rife amongst those who can’t see past their own borders. What passport do you carry? A Scottish one? An English one? No, you have a British passport, because the provinces within the UK are not countries.
England and scotland were once independent countries hundreds of years ago, but no longer-if you did not know, many years ago we merged to become one large country, as part of great britain! So we are unusual in this sense. We like to keep our english and scottish identities in sport, with seperate teams in world soccer tournaments for example, but this is pure tradition being proud of our seperate history and traditions. On a global level however, we are simply one country, great britain, and part of the united kingdom, which consists of Scotland england northern ireland and wales. Sure, the education system and certain laws are slightly different, but they are all VERY minimal differences as we are all run by the same government which resides in england. Scottish money may state on it being the ‘scottish pound note’, and english the ‘english pound’ as an example, but they are perfectly acceptable on either sides of the ‘border’. When they are not accepted, the problem lies with the retailer simply not knowing the facts or being awkward, and nothing more. The current prime minister, gordon brown, is scottish, who resides in london england, which is where our government lies.
We are far too small to become independent. Many scottish, welsh, irish and english may well state they feel they are not british, but they are either simply being ignorant, uneducated or of the sort more easily inclined to become racist to others.
We get confused simply due to the fact that GB or the UK is made up of regions that were indeed once countries on their own, but they arent any more. We did not officially rename each one to being regions, and since scotland and england etc actually have regions of their own we would simply get confused! as for someone saying scotland and england must be seperate countries as they have different law and education systems etc, this is nonsense as it could easily be changed by the london british parliment to a single system at any time if they so wished. We are still known as seperate countries in sport simply for tradition and nothing else. Great britain is a big place, so i find nothing wrong with being able to still celebrate our origins in sport- by having seperate scottish, english, welsh and irish teams allows for more of us to take part at least, and that has to be a good thing!
Quite a lot of nonsense written on this thread. In 1969 the Royal Commission on the Constitution was set up with the aim of examining the relation between central legislature and government on one hand and the “several countries, nations and regions of the United Kingdom” on the other. The words “countries”, “nations” and “regions” reveal a certain vagueness which was eventually resolved by the Report of the Commission.It speaks of the four “countries” that make up the United Kingdom: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
On top of this, the concept of Wales, Scotland or England is completely alien to people of these countries. Each has its own culture, history, and language.
You can always find some technicality to say this is not so, but by most sensible definitions, of course they are separate countries. Remember, it is possible that scotland may become separate from britain in the not to distant future. Greece was part of the ottoman empire for 400 years – did it ever stop being a country?
It doesn’t matter what your opinion is the United Kingdom is a country. Scotland, Wales, England, and Northern Ireland are not sovereign nations anymore. They just aren’t countries so get over it. To say that they are individual countries is simply incorrect.
of course england is a country. what a load of nonsense. the uk is made up of england wales scotland and some part of ireland. dont know which part dosent really matter anyway. why would all the countries have seperate flags and national anthems if we were all one big country? you ceptics havent got a clue about anything anyway.
John you’re a misguided fool. First of all each state within the United States has its own state flag so that argument is total nonsense simply having its own flag does not make a region a country. Clearly England WAS a country but that was in the past. See four regions that were PREVIOUSLY countries and I stress the word PREVIOUS came together as four regions that made up one large country. Once they came together to form the United Kingdom they are no longer individual countries..The United Kingdom is the official country. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland no longer serve as independent countries and do NOT function as independent countries. They act more like states or provinces now. There is no arguing this fact for it is more than well documented. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ARE NOT OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED AS INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES BY ANY NATION IN THE WORLD ONLY THE UNITED KINGDOM IS.
kk thx gg hf no re
This comment was owned by Willis Parns Inc. owning uninformed idiots since 1889.
John you’re a misguided fool. First of all each state within the United States has its own state flag so that argument is total nonsense simply having its own flag does not make a region a country. Clearly England WAS a country but that was in the past. See four regions that were PREVIOUSLY countries and I stress the word PREVIOUS came together as four regions that made up one large country. Once they came together to form the United Kingdom they are no longer individual countries..The United Kingdom is the official country. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland no longer serve as independent countries and do NOT function as independent countries. They act more like states or provinces now. There is no arguing this fact for it is more than well documented. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ARE NOT OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED AS INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES BY ANY NATION IN THE WORLD ONLY THE UNITED KINGDOM IS.
kk thx gg hf no re
scotland, england, ireland and wales all have independant football teams. why? its called TRADITION! its not “evidence” that they are seperate countries. scotland with an independant education system? why? its called TRADITION-something that was never changed. thats about it. they both joined with wales, northern island, and most of the small islands to become great britain. many may stress that they are or want to be, “seperate”.. why? its called tradition… each holding on to their history. many dont want to be “british”-some may state they want to be independant.. but all countries are far too small to lead seperate lives, heck, most of these “countries” arent even as big as most american states! through royal family marriage many yrs ago, scotland and england become one country. That will never change. Thats why it can be confusing for the outsider, when they are still regarded as “countries” within one large country.
If england was a real, true SEPERATE country, it would NOT have a SCOTTISH PRIME MINISTER at the moment!
YES, they are ALL COUNTRIES, each with their own tradidtions and history, however often linked through the many years.
what people are confused about is one simple thing……… they are NOT seperate countries in their own right.
This is why other countries do not regard the land mass as Scotland, England and Wales. It is ALWAYS GREAT BRITAIN or simply the UK. They formed a union long ago. This is why Prince Charles can visit scotland without being attacked from crazy folk in skirts shouting “freedom!”…
LOL
Thank you to “tony blether” for at least understanding the main argument to this blog. I encourage you to also reference the “scotland is not a country” blog. The main thing people are failing to realize is that even though Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, and Wales are referred to as the 4 constituent countries of the United Kingdom they serve no greater purpose than would a state or a province. Therefore, even though these plots of land be still commonly referred to as “countries” this term is used in the broadest sense of the word. Provinces, states, or regions would all be appropriate words for describing these so called “constituent countries.” What many of the people arguing fail to realize is that this discussion was made to simply state that England is not an “official” country. Now what do I mean by that? It’s fairly simple by “official” i mean independent, which means to pass this criteria it must be recognized by other “official” autonomous countries as it’s own autonomous nation, none of these four “constituent countries” are their own autonomous countries. Perhaps the discussion should have been labeled better such as “England is not an official/independent country” but regardless, that is what this argument is based on and as far as that argument is concerned there is NO debate whatsoever for this is a fact…Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, and Wales are not their own independent/official/autonomous nation, this is 100% fact.
Matt Rosenberg created this confusion by using the word “country” to mean “sovereign state.”
The four countries of the UK are defined so by their government, which doesn’t change because an American geographer doesn’t have a dictionary.
Since he has corrected the articles to read “independent country” the discussion is moot. Since he has not corrected or removed these blog posts, I can only assume the purpose of them is to generate outrage, and thus traffic.
England, like Scotland, is a country. Just not independent ones.
yes in the sense you use the word, they are all countries, regions, provinces, states, anything that can be broadly used to describe a section of land. However, in real terms the real country is the United Kingdom. Morons like you that argue over semantics miss the big picture and will always be one step behind because intelligent people don’t care that there are tons of different words that all act as synonyms to describe the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom. The only important idea (and only applicable idea) to be somewhat relevant is to realize that none of those four are recognized as countries. If you fail to realize what Matt is talking about in this article you are either
1. ignorant and stupid
2. 12 years old or younger armed with a websters dictionary ready to argue against something that isn’t even the issue at hand.
try and get past a word (which normally contain multiple definitions) and try and figure out how it applies to the topic at hand. Failure to do this represents nothing but ignorance and a lack of intelligence.
hf gg no re
Willis Parns Inc. owning idiots since 1889
As I own you on the Scotland thread, I own you here. Neither your nor Matt knows how to use the word “state” properly.
A “country” need not be independent. A geographer should know better. Perhaps he’s just not a very good one. As for you, you’re just owned.
I’m not owned at all, as a matter of fact (you can check on the Scotland thread) I have torn you apart. The only thing you can flee back to is a dictionary and the definition of the word country which me and a lot of people agree on. However, it is inherently obvious in these cases that independent countries are the implied conversation. If you fail to get by this, you will add absolutely no value to the discussion (this is already the case). No one should participate in a geography blog to argue semantics if you want to do that go to a political science or philosophy forum and talk in circles for the rest of your life and gain nothing at all from it.
england,wales,scotland and ireland are countrys we all had a histroy 1066 the english civil war also great britain wasnt even invented until 1705 when the scotts and english decided to join together making great britain before that everything was named english making england today a country, scotland had a country even though mostly it was ruled by english.
also where is london based england where is the majority of the british armed forces from??? england also the person who said about florida its own country no it never had any history of being its own country, was florida a country and then came into US no so your obvisouly got a different concept on how down to earth people look at things ok??
england is not a country
i am 100% sure,
that england is not a country
i have researched on it for the last 6 years,
england is not a country..
1.it is part of united kingdo, which is a country
biggest and main reason is that it has no high commision
1 there is british high commision
but there is no english high commision
which is very necessary for any country
a country has to pass 9 rules.
england passes 8 rules,
but not this one
that is why its not a country
Willis Parns is obviously been humiliated at having his sorry arse owned before the world by the simple act of opening a dictionary.
Hostile blather does not a logical argument make.
…this thread is – ah – interesting, for lack of a better term.
I find it quite intriguing how a ‘country’ can be defined by modern ideals (but alas, this is a modern world).
I enjoyed the article itself and understand it, but I would never accept that I do not live in the ‘county’ of Derbyshire, in the ‘north’ of the ‘country’ of England. In the same way, a Scotsman would probably rather kill himself then say he was British (I apologise for stereotyping there, just parroting the words of a Scottish friend), I am and always will be English rather than British.
I love how to the rest of the world our archipelago comes under the header of ‘BRITISH PEOPLE HERE, LOOK’ but to us, living on these strange, lovely old islands, we all have our own identities. In much the same way as someone living in Scotland is Scottish and someone living in Wales is Welsh, someone living in Liverpool (which is a city) still identifies as a Liverpudlian, just like how someone living in the Durham/Newcastle/Tynside region comes under the title of ‘Geordie’.
I think the issue here is people treating the idea of their nationality with what they feel rather than with what is legally considered. I myself admit freely; I am British, born on the largest island of an archipelago that identifies itself as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Yet, if someone asks me where I am from I always, without hesitation, reply, “I’m English,” (to a foreigner) or, “I’m from Derbyshire,” (to another Brit). I feel this is because this, while it is not who I am legally recognised as (my passport is proof enough of this), it is who I myself believe myself to be.
[......]
I grew up in the Derby Dales, with stories of Robin Hood and fables from before electricity to put me to sleep. I grew up knowing – this is England; these stories, this loveliness, this peace, this home – this is mine, and I am hers. So, without shadow of a doubt even though I know it is not true (and sometimes I wish it were, that we were still whole and not losing ourselves, not slipping away like precious water in a desert), I identify as English, because then it feels like I’m doing something to hold onto that fading world from before, where knights and kings and queens and the fae were all we knew.
Please, do not identify this as an insulting few words. I know we are not a country, and it hurts me because we were, we *were*, but maybe it is nice to remain ignorant and think we are? At least, that is what I feel.
I agree. The element that makes a country a country is certainly not people calling it that way, as you jave showed us. They claim that they have their own traditions and that there exists the Welsh language, but every region or province of a country has its own traditions and Spain has more than one language. Thank you.
The uk was formed by the act of union between countries (England and scotland 1707 and ireland 1801). This union did not stop the countries being countries, it just created a super national nation state.
The USA is a union of states, but that union does not means that the states are no longer states just because they are in a union.
The UAE is union between emirate, but that union does not mean that the emirates no longer exist
It is a country, but england cannot EVER operate as a seperate country. It is a country within a country (the United Kingdom) and can only ever operate as the United Kingdom on an international level. Thats why people are confused. Simples. Each country (not forgetting wales or northern ireand) is far smaller than many american states.. and it doesnt help when most americans label it as a small island and regard great britain as simply just ‘england’. For so many similar questions, it it obvious that so many replies are littered by those who group themselves as being pure english who have a fair dislike to the scottish, and vice versa. They believe that either would operate far better if they were to run individually, when in truth, as scotland is so small in population in comparison, nothing would change notably whatsoever. No different to the north of england wanting to part from the south-racism is everywhere, even when they essentially all come from the same VERY SMALL ISLAND. LOL!!